On points of 6 or 8, a put bet has the same 1.52 percent house edge as a place bet if you take 5x odds, and the house edge dips lower if you wager even more in odds. If you take 4x odds, then other put bets have the same house edge as place bets - 4 percent on 5 or 9 and 6.67 percent on 4 or 10. Place bets are paid at lower than true odds while Buy bets are paid at full true odds minus a 5% commission. Person 1: places the 4 for $20. He is paid off at 9-to-5 odds which is a net of $36 won. Person 2: buys the 4 for $20 and is charged a 5% commission ($1) for his bet. Lay Bet and Buy Bet in Craps This is one of the more complicated and interesting bets in craps. First I will start off talking about the buy bet. Basically, players can make a bet on the established point numbers at any time. As you can see here, the payouts are slightly lower than true odds. The house edge for place 4 and place 10 is 6.67%, the house edge for place 5 and place 9 is 4.00% and the house edge for place 6 and place 8 is a very nice 1.57%. I tried to provide a screenshot of different place bets below. The Buy bet becomes a bad bet compared to the Place bet if the casino requires the vig up front. The house advantage for Placing the 5 and 9 is 4.00%, whereas the house advantage for Buying for 5 and 9 with the vig up front is a bit worse at 4.76%.

1. Craps Place Bet Or Buys
2. Craps Place Bet Or Buy A House
3. Craps Place Bet Or Buy House
4. Craps Place Bet Vs Buy

If I understand the arguments in a number of other threads, I think it boils down to,
'If the total bet amounts are equal, the Place/Buy bettor, over time, will lose more BR than the PL/CB'
If I have stated this incorrectly, please let me know, so I can reword it.
I agree that over a player's lifetime, that is the most likely outcome, but it is not the only possible outcome. If I was certain that was the only outcome, I would have stopped playing craps years ago. maybe ;-)
In many of the sessions I have played, I have had little success with CB. It has usually led to losses for me, even though the math says it is the best way to play. Therefore, I have 'tried' to make the point that making the CB/odds does not guarantee that the next time you play craps you will fair better than someone who is buy/place betting.
So, help me devise a fair challenge, where a Place/Buy bettor and a Come bettor can play at the same table, during the same rolls, with a wager to be settled by which bettor has the bigger BR at the end of the session.
I will meet you at the craps table. Same starting BR. Opportunity for an equal amount of bets to be wagered, during the same time frame. BR at the end of the session will determine the winner of the bet.
How do we determine the session length? Time? Number of Rolls? Number of unique shooters?

Craps Place Bet Or Buys

What would the rules need to look like for a fair challenge, on a $10 table (3-4-5x), vig on the win for the Buy 4,10? (If the challenge takes place in MS, then it would be vig on win for Buy 4,5,9,10)
Proposed Rules
- Both Players will make a Pass Line bet and take full odds. This is always mandatory for both players, and the amount of this bet never changes.
- The Come Bettor will place a $10 CB at every opportunity, and take full odds each time.
- The Place bettor will Place the 6/8 for $60, 5/9 for $50, and Buy the 4/10 for $35.
- Each bettor can take down their bets at any time, following craps rules (ie. base CB cannot be taken down)
- Each bettor can work their bets on the Come Out roll.
Pressing is a key component of the Place/Buy play. How do we create rules that keeps the potential total amount bet the same?
In the rule below, I am allowing the Place/Buy to go up what would be a $5 CB, with full odds, each time a number gets hit. This is not the way I would press, but I think it would be okay for this challenge.
- Each time a number has been hit, the Place Bettor can press their bet ( $20 on the 4/10, $25 on the 5/9, $30 on the 6/8).
But how do we allow the CB to be pressed? Obviously, it can only be pressed after the original CB for that number has been paid once, but that means the new $10 CB has already been placed. We could allow the CB player to increase the bet via a $5 w odds PUT bet, but that would negate the come out roll advantage of that extra $5. Allowing a CB of $15 before every CB number has been hit at least once, would potentially allow the CB to have a higher bet amount , since they could be putting up a $15 CB for the first time on a number that had not previously been hit.
I would not consider allowing the Come bettor to increase their bet at any time to be a fair rule, as a single $100 CB with odds would decide the outcome.
Is there any way to allow for pressing, yet keep the total amount wagered to be equal?

This challenge could be interesting, but the result won't mean a whole lot. If the table goes a certain way, the results would be slanted that way. What if there were a tremendous amount of 11's along with 7's hitting at the 'right' time? The pass line bettor could be making money when you're on the sidelines.
To allow for pressing, you could find a 10x or more table and restrict the starting odds to 345x but allow pressing after that.
I'll look for the results of this challenge, if it happens, but it'll mostly be just another story about experiences at the craps table.

You are hitting on precisely my point.
Any time I make an example of how the place/buy bet could be a benefit, I get accused of cherry picking my example, and get ripped for it. I'm a big boy. I understand why that happens. Sure, a number of 11's could roll, when a point is ON, and I get crushed, $10 at a time. Of course, a number of 2,3,12 could roll too, and hurt the CB. Or, a number of shooters could go PSO, killing me. Then again, a number of shooters could throw single box numbers, and never repeat (which is generally my experience, and perhaps teddys based on his post), in which case I would benefit greatly. Holy cow, sounds like a real craps game! :-)
So, I say let's take it to a live game, with a separate wager riding on the outcome. It should be a great time! It certainly will be a lot of fun, regardless of whether I win or lose the wager, and you're right, it will make a great story.
MustangSally did key me into a certain point though. I was looking at units won, but was not really accounting to the fact that I generally was putting more money at risk during that same time. So somehow that has to be accounted for to make it a fair wager.
And that is the hard part of creating this challenge. How to structure it to keep the amount wagered equal.

To allow for pressing, you could find a 10x or more table and restrict the starting odds to 345x but allow pressing after that.

Interesting idea, but I have two thoughts:
1. This would only account for basically the first press by the Place/Buy bettor
2. Allowing the CB to increase their bets with a 'free' odds bet would skew the bet a bit, since the base come bet, paying 1:1 would remain low.

Craps Place Bet Or Buy A House

Played close to 40 hours of Live Craps in 3 days. Played Come versus Place Bettors and compared the two. On monster rolls, Place Bettors made a KILLING. The biggest part of why I HATE Come Bets is it invites lots of Horn/Any Craps Bets during the 'ON' cycle of the game when shooters keep repeating 2,3,12's. It also totally compromises the landing zone for 'lucky' Craps shooters trying to avoid the Pass Line, Odds and Come Bets chips.
Nothing a 'lucky' shooter likes better than having ZERO chips in his/her landing zone. This is why I usually identify a 'lucky' shooter and play directly in the spot in front of his landing zone. I 'protect' his landing zone by not having Come Bets, Pass Line Bets or Odds. I make Place Bets; giving up a higher House Edge but the longer roll by the 'lucky' Dice thrower is worth it.I had an a-hole shooter ask me to move my passline bet. It took me a minute to realize what was going on, nobody on my side of the table understood what he was talking about.
In my passive aggressive nature, I decided to stand directly in his way and took away his line of sight. He seven'd out pretty quickly. The only time I was happy to lose money at the craps table.

I had an a-hole shooter ask me to move my passline bet. It took me a minute to realize what was going on, nobody on my side of the table understood what he was talking about.

I had the same thing happen to me years ago and after making boatloads of money, I realized that it's important to a lot of shooters. I ALWAYS listen to shooters requests. On a second MONSTER roll this past weekend, the shooter 7'ed out when his Dice hit the Come Bet by this woman who kept on making Late Come Bets. The shooter was very upset!On a similar line of messing with the shooter. I had the dice in my hands on a come out roll and someone on the opposite side of the table laid their bet down around the come bet area. After getting scolded (nicely, nobody was a dick) what did he do? He tried to pick up said come bet $. Again, all this happened while I was holding the dice. At that point, you've lost the respect of EVERYONE at the table.

Played close to 40 hours of Live Craps in 3 days. Played Come versus Place Bettors and compared the two. On monster rolls, Place Bettors made a KILLING. The biggest part of why I HATE Come Bets is it invites lots of Horn/Any Craps Bets during the 'ON' cycle of the game when shooters keep repeating 2,3,12's. It also totally compromises the landing zone for 'lucky' Craps shooters trying to avoid the Pass Line, Odds and Come Bets chips.
Nothing a 'lucky' shooter likes better than having ZERO chips in his/her landing zone. This is why I usually identify a 'lucky' shooter and play directly in the spot in front of his landing zone. I 'protect' his landing zone by not having Come Bets, Pass Line Bets or Odds. I make Place Bets; giving up a higher House Edge but the longer roll by the 'lucky' Dice thrower is worth it.

That is interesting, but it is also what I expect. If the Come Bettor places all the numbers initially, so that the first time the number is rolled, the CB is getting paid , and then uses that money as odds, then I would expect the CB and the Place bettor to come out the same (assuming equal amounts are being played). But, therein lies the difference! In my experience, I see the Place bettors pressing their bets, putting much more money into play. The Come Bettors may press their CB, and odds, but most of the time they just keep playing the same amount. So, if the 7 out takes a while, the Place bettor has gained some serious rack, but also loses a boatload of money left on the table at the 7-out.
I have decided the Come Bet strategy works best overall, as long as the Come Bettor is not Placing anything across. The CB loses a lot less on those shooters who only make 0 or 1 point, and throw 1 box number. And if you get that one shooter that throws the same box number 3x and then 7 outs, the Come Bettor makes out much better than the Place Bettor. While they both win almost the same amount on the 3 box numbers, the Place bettor has a much bigger loss on the 7 out.
That is the piece that I was missing for the longest time. I was looking at the money won (especially on the good to monster rolls) and the Place bettor absolutely kills the Come Bettor (as you also noted). But all the other shooters results in a bigger loss for the Place bettor, and thus leads to a higher chance of a greater loss.
But, I don't play craps for 6 hours hoping to break even. I am looking to win 3 or 4k, so I am willing to play the higher risk game. Give me 2 good rolls in that time, and I will hit my win goal.
Which leads me to the title of this thread.
I would be surprised if any of the staunch Come Bet strategists would be willing to put up their money for this challenge. One good shooter and the Place bettor would win the challenge going away.

{losing} a boatload of money left on the table at the 7-out.

Piling up that boatload and losing it is the bane of the Come bettor.
When I have made money with Come bets it has exclusively been when the money failed to pile up but instead only one or two numbers are covered. The shooter hits a number and I notice I have to replace it, and this happens again and again.
Tough duty, having to make the Come bet again when the damn shooter keeps rolling the number !! [g]

Craps Place Bet Or Buy House

In an earlier article I talked about the Pass and Don’t Pass bets as well as the Come and Don’t Come bets PLUS the all-important Free Odds bet. In all of these bets the actual “point” to be decided is determined by a roll of the dice. On the Come Out roll, for example, if the shooter tosses a Four then the Four becomes the Point. She must repeat the Four before throwing a Seven in order to win if shooting from the Pass side. Players on the Don’t Pass are hoping the Seven rolls before the Four.

Craps Place Bet Vs Buy

Let’s assume you are a Pass Line bettor and the point has been established as the Four. As a “right” side player your favorite numbers are probably the six and eight. Why? Because there are more “combinations” on the dice that add up to six or eight than any other point numbers. There are five ways each to roll the six or eight versus six ways to roll the seven. When wagered as a pair the six and eight give you ten ways to win versus six ways to lose. Since these numbers roll more often – you should win more often. Of course, those numbers are deceiving because you’re only going to win even money on your Pass Line bet and 6 – 5 on the Free Odds bet. However, the casino will let you choose the number you bet for a small “fee.” It’s called a Place Bet. You simply give the dealer your chips and tell him which number you’d like to place a bet on. They set up the bet and give you any change due. Then, if the bet wins, they extract that “fee” from the payoff. Instead of paying you true odds of 6 to 5 they will pay you 7 – 6. So on a $5 game you’d Place the Six and Eight for $6 each. If either of them roll you’ll be paid $7.

There are literally thousands of betting strategies that have been developed through the years to attempt to gain an edge over craps through various combinations of bets. None of them work over the long run. The math of the game is incontrovertible. However, many such strategies do work and work quite well over the short run – giving rise to hope in many players of an easy life living off the casino’s money. But craps is a tough way to make an easy living.

Here are the payoffs on the various Place Bets:

Six and eight – 7 to 6
Five and nine – 7 to 5
Four and ten – 9 to 5

In a $10 game – the game you are most likely to encounter in Las Vegas and on cruise ships – you can bet $10 each on the four, five, nine and ten. The six and eight are bet for $12 each in order to get a correct payoff.

There are several common “combination” bets you’ll hear players place at the table. These bets are made by “action” players who want to get more money on the table quickly in hopes of turning a big profit from a hot hand. Here are some of the more common wagers:

$44 Inside – $10 each on the five and nine plus $12 each on the six and eight
$40 Outside – $10 each on the four, five, nine and ten.
$44 Even – $10 each on the four and ten plus $12 each on the six and eight
$64 Across – $10 each on the Outside numbers plus $12 each on the six and eight – covering all of the numbers.
Then there’s my favorite. Toss in a $100 chip and ask for $96 across plus $1 each on the hardways.
Of course, you’ll hear these same wagers made in different denominations – all the way up to table maximum.
$110 Inside
$660 Even Numbers
$9600 Across

As long as the bet is within the tables stated limits – the house will book it.

The house edge on Place Bets on the Four and Ten are so high that it’s recommended that you “Buy” those numbers if the bet exceeds $20. At that level the player pays a 5% or $1 commission for the right to be paid “true” odds of 2 – 1. In some casinos the $1 commission is paid up front. In others it is only collected when the bet wins. The latter is more advantageous to the player. It’s also worth noting that casinos typically allow players to Buy the Four and Ten for $25 and still pay only $1 commission as a courtesy to green chip bettors. Others extend the “breakage” out to $30. If you find a casino that extends the breakage to $30 and collects the commission only on the win you’ve found a real bargain. This brings the house edge down on a par with the Pass Line bet.

Place Bets and Buy Bets are the meat and potatoes of serious craps players. Over the long run they are not quite as strong as Pass and Come bets with odds, but played correctly they do offer many advantages over Pass and Come Betting. Here’s a quick look at some of those advantages.

1. The Player chooses which number he bets on rather than relying on random chance.
2. The number the player bets on only has to hit once for him to get paid. Pass and Come bets have to roll twice.
3. Place bets are always under player control and can be taken down at any time. Pass and Come bets are contract bets and must remain up and working.
4. The player can also regress his bets down as low as table minimum at any time if he wants to take additional profit off the table. Place and Come bettors can only take down their odds – not the underlying bet.

Place bets are the meat and potato bets for many players, but not every hand tossed at the table has a happen ending. In fact, every hand tossed at craps ends with a seven out. For that reason, a few players prefer to play the “Dark Side.” For them the “meat and potatoes bets are Lay Bets.

Simply put, the Lay Bet is exactly the opposite of the Place and Buy bets we talked about last week. However, in the United States it is rare to see a Place to Lose bet on the Layout. Instead, the casinos simply accept Lay Bets on all of the numbers.
You may Lay a bet against 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 or 10 at any time, and Lay bets are often employed as “hedge” bets some betting strategies. Lay bets function about the same as a Don’t Come bet. When laying against a number, you are wagering that the seven will roll before that number. The casino charges a 5% commission based on what you could win. Correctly sized Lay Bets are:

$41 No Four or No Ten – Pays $20
$31 No Five or No Nine – Pays $20
$25 No Six or No Eight – Pays $20

Lay Bets always work unless you take them down and are denoted by a Lay button or “lammer.”

One of the most popular uses of Lay bets is as a hedge. Players betting the Don’t Pass at the $20 – $25 level often fear getting “knocked off” by a Come Out Seven or Eleven, and get a partial hedge by Laying the Four or Ten for $41. If a Seven shows on the Come Out the player loses his Pass Line bet, but wins his Lay Bet – more or less offsetting his loss. Of course, he’s not hedged against the eleven so hedge players often end up betting a $1 “YO” to cover the eleven, then $2 on the Hard Four or Ten to partially hedge their Hedge Bet. Bottom line? You end up hedging your hedges – which is why hedge betting is generally not a good idea. Simply bet within your bankroll and don’t worry about hedging.

Remember, despite all of the complications we’ve added, at the end of the day craps is still a coin flip game. On every toss of the dice you win, lose, or there’s no decision (that affects you).